The amount of people who are okay with self-elected individuals viloating people’s liberties as a response to the violation of liberties is both shocking and disappointing. Just because you claim it’s for a righteous cause, that doesn’t make it okay. That’s the same kind of mentality that leads to the justification of things like the NSA surveillance, the EU chat control, ID requirements to access parts of the internet. Keep trading away your freedoms for a false sense of security, you might never get them back.
Shut the fuck up. These are members of the actual community policing a STREET themselves.
Fuck outta here with your garbage. State surveillance and power is scary cuz it’s the fucking state.
No one in Minneapolis is spinning up an NSA, and no one with a brain thinks a community imposing order and safety itself, on its own community, as it’s invaded by a fascist paramilitary, shares anything in common with the idiotic slippery slope nonsense you’re talking about. Get a grip (or get better at propaganda, your call).
“Violating liberties is only bad when the fascists do it. When I do it, its okay.”
-You
I’m willing to have an open dialogue, but when you immediately jump in with the attacks and bad faith arguments, you get blocked. I never said that these actions will lead to those things, I said their driven by the same mentality: violating liberties for a righteous crusade. Your heart may be in the right place, but two wrongs don’t make a right.
I’m not criticizing people defending their communities. Calling out bad tactics is not the same as criticizing the entire movement. But when you resort to violating liberties to do it, the thing you’re supposedly fighting against, then you’re clearly a hypocrite and you’re clearly in the wrong.
Good day.
then how should they defend their communities? what would you do to organize your neighbors and keep themselves safe from unidentified goons dressed driving around in vehicles that are not clearly identified as being goons, sometimes even masquerading as delivery vehicles?
also the scale of violence is so wildly disproportionate that it’s EXTREMELY hard to take you serious. ICE: murdering people in the street for being brown or in the way. popular decentralized organization: making sure they know who’s coming in and out of their community not through a digital panopticon but by coordinating observations.
like… do you also consider the zapatistas an authoritarian power structure? popular front in palestine? the rojava?
two wrongs don’t make a right
You can keep your nursery rhyme morality, too. These are life and death stakes, occurring on the ground right now - hostility is the only appropriate response to a take as bad as yours, because it sounds like enemy action.
Go fuck yourself.
That’s what the police was supposed to be doing. Preventing crime.
been yelling at my Mayor. no, not signing a collaboration agreement isnt enough. they need to make sure no white supremacist mask paramilitary gang conducting ethnic cleansing for pedophiles should be allowed to step foot without being arrested.
police standing by, not protecting their community is still them being complicit. ACAB for sure. but in theory (based on copaganda), fighting crime and protecting people was the whole point of them having the most overblown budget in the city.
I’ve been saying for a few weeks now that Minnesotans need to form a citizens militia of some sort. Neighbors protecting neighbors from the fascist paramilitary thugs roaming the streets and conducting warrantless searches and illegal detentions.
This is a big step in the right direction.
You don’t have to march out into the streets and have a shootout with ICE to send a very clear and intimidating message - real American patriots look out for their friends and neighbors, and Trump’s thugs are not welcome anywhere and should watch their backs constantly and sleep with one eye open.
One might say that a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state!
I swear I’ve read this sentiment before somewhere…
At the caucus last night we made a resolution of such - If our ‘well regulated militia’ is our national guard, than we need to fight to make sure that some authoritarian can’t come in, nationalize them and turn them against the people of their state. We also resolved that no national guard troops from another state be allowed to operate in a law enforcement capacity in our state. I think there’s still too many in the DFL who think we should be reaching across the aisle but I say the time for that is done.
“Reaching across the aisle” despite decades of bad faith is how we got here. The time for that is indeed long past.
As far as the Framers of the Constitution’s intent, it’s very well known that they were vehemently opposed to tyranny, so if the federal government becomes such, the “free state” will clearly be those places that it is attempting to oppress.
If someone can’t be held accountable to the law then we are living in a tyrannical state.
Milquetoast centrists will lie to themselves and say we’re not there yet, but we absolutely are.
and have been
I’ve said they need to create ice free zones like Portland did for police free zones.
This is what I’m talking about!
This is ILLEGAL and they Need to be DEPORTED!
-People who are OK with ICE Ramming cars off The Road with their Guns Drawn!
I just wanted to say that my day is brightened every time I see one of your conments
Removed by mod
It’s in their right to form a gated community if they want. And valid warrants are required to enter.
Gonna start with: Fuck ICE.
As to your comment about a gated community, there some logistics around it such as the loss of city/county maintenance of roads and usually trash service. Yes they are well within their rights but it does create a lot of additional headaches.
Trash service is private, you’re either paying your community to pay the company or paying the company directly. Not a big difference.
Correct but it’s still logistics exactly the same as the road. You’re either paying the community to fix your roads (via taxes) or paying the company directly. You also lose a lot of the economies of scale and negotiating power as you’re now a smaller entity.
Its a public street paid for by tax dollars. Not how that works.
so they paid for it. they get to say if white supremacists paramilitary gangs led my pedophiles get to enter
We all paid for it. I can’t block the freeway on the grounds that my tax dollars paid for it. And this isn’t targeted restrictions, its a blanket restriction. If this only blocked ICE movements I would be less concerned, but this affects everyone using the roads. That’s the same kind of builshit tactics used to push indiscriminate surveillance to “protect the children.”
it only stops ICE, but I guess, you are so important, it would be rude to let you be a minute late, se we better let white supremacists gangs kidnap your neighbors so we don’t inconvenience you.
do us all a favor and choke on that boot already.
It doesn’t only stop ICE. Elsewhere in this thread someone was trying to tell me that ICE agents are indistinguishable from normal citizens (bullshit, by the way) so by that logic, they would need to stop everyone in order to determine if they’re ICE or not. Its not about my time, its about the violation of personal liberties. This has “papers please” vibes written all over it. That shits not okay when the government does it, and its not okay when private citizens do it. You on the other hand have no moral consistency. You rebuke oppression when its on the other side, and let it slide when its on your side.
good to know your personal liverty to not be delayed by a minute is more important than the personal liverty of your neighbors to not be kidnapped by white supremacists.
do us all a favor and choke to death on that boot.
Well, actually, it depends on the road. If it’s a municipal, county, or state road, then the local municipal, county, or state, respectively, can decide to close the street down entirely if they want.
So it kind of is how it works. Unless it’s an interstate.
Not exactly a gated community, but they’re generally allowed to do these kinds of things.
Then take it up with your municipal, county, or state if you want to change public roads. What these people are doing is akin to vigilantism.
Ok, then let the municipality, county, or state, stop them. If they don’t, that’s their prerogative.
Residents who have a problem with that are welcome to lobby the respective governing body.
So then they really do own it then?
No, we collectively own it. I dont get to decide what to do with it any more than you do, any more then they do.
so why do white supremacists from outside of town who didn’t pay for it get to decide how it’s used instead of the citizens who did? the roads of minneapolis are primarily funded by the very citizens setting up these checkpoints. by your own logic, this is EXACTLY what should be done, but then you swerve at the last minute and say it shouldn’t
I’m sorry, I’m not aware of ICE putting up road blocks. Would you kind sharing an example so I can stay better informed? Regardless, its not okay for them to do it either. We have every duty to prevent them from continuing to do that, but just because they’re getting away with violating peoples liberties, that doesn’t give you free reign to do it too.
Also, not sure how my logic dictates people should be doing this. Would you mind elaborating further on that bit?
oh, so roadblocks set by ice protestors are wrong so long as ice isn’t doing them, and the protestors, who paid for the roads, should just allow ice to come into their communities and kill and kidnap their neighbors?
That’s not even remotely what I said. Its bad when law enforcement does this, and its bad when private citizens do it to. I’ve repeatedly said that throughout this thread. There are ways of combatting ICE that don’t double down on the violation of people’s liberties. If you’re going to double down on bad-faith arguments though, then we’re done here.
Relax, they are just keeping the streets safe.
Indeed. Completely understandable to establish borders to keep certain people out who might mean you harm or who might disrupt the peace of your community. Unfortunately you also need infrastructure to enforce those borders, such as documentation and an enforcement agency. But it’s worth it in order to keep your community safe.
Completely understandable to establish borders to keep certain people out who might mean you harm or who might disrupt the peace of your community.
I mean, keeping ice out because they genuinely are a threat is cool. But some people would use this logic to keep out black people, because they falsely believe black people will disrupt the peace or mean them harm.
Don’t tell’em about zip codes!
They might learn this is the exact case already!Yes exactly, which is why rules like this should never pass.
As long as that does not extend beyond individual neighborhoods or towns, yes. Once states begin doing it, the problems rise up.
Brave badasses.
Restricting peoples freedom of movement is incredibly fucked up, even if its for a righteous cause.
do US all a favor and choke on they boot already
Stop shoving your boot down my throat. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
me, hopping your fascist state doesn’t kidnap me. and you have the gall of calling yourself the victim? fuck off
Approving of violating liberties to combat the violation of liberties is incredibly hypocritical. Your lack of self-awareness is astounding.
have you ever complained when entering a venue and they checked of you have a ticket? or crossed a border? but now, when this is a necessity to protect your own neighborhood from white supremacy paramilitary troops, now you draw the line.
do us all a favor and choke on that boot.
that’s like complaining that a fireman needa a warrant to enter your burning house to save you, but you are ok with police coming in to murder your children without a warrant.
How do you feel about traffic lights?
See my comment elsewhere. False equivelance.
People’s movement is slowed down for the safety of the community.
Speed bumps slow people down. Stop lights and stop signs coordinate movement. These actions block movement. You are physically impeded unless some arbitrary self-elected judge grants you passage. Again, false equivalent.
Dude fuck off, there’s literally Nazis out doing everything they can to blend in and kidnap regular people.
Lmao, they’re not blending in. Are you blind m8? Just because your enemies are violating peoples rights, that doesn’t give you free reign to violate peoples rights too.
They are in civilian clothes & in civilian vehicles. That’s the epitome of blending in
I’ve not seen any evidence of ICE not standing out like a sore fucking thumb. Would you mind sharing an example?
Yeah, totally blending in with normal people. They definitely don’t stick out like a sore thumb.
Nobody’s freedom is being restricted, just slowed down, controlled and managed for community safety. Are traffic lights unconstitutional too?
I didn’t say anything about the constitution. Nice strawman there tho. Blocking public roads is restricting people’s freedom of movement. Not sure how you can say otherwise with a straight face. You’re preventing people from using the road when you block it. Traffic lights don’t block the road or prevent you from using them. Barriers do. Stop being willfully ignorant.
They’re “traffic stops.” So they’re presumably letting the people through after. So just like a traffic light or stop sign or sobriety checkpoint. So no, they’re not preventing people from using the road, are they?
I didn’t say they were preventing people from using the road, I said they were restricting peoples freedom of movement. I don’t view those statements as synonymous.the difference between this and traffic lights/stop signs is the latter doesn’t erect a physical barrier where my freedoms are subject to the whims of a random individual. As consequence, I don’t agree with police checkpoints either as a method of policing.
This feels really weird to me:
protecting the community against ICE is of course a righteous cause, but to do it by basically acting like less murderous cops, inconveniencing a lot of innocent people is not the BEST way to do that.
Especially since many of the people who would be willing to volunteer for such a task will tend to be less willing to stop again once ICE hopefully goes away making the stops an unnecessary nuisance…
If it’s a community action empowered by the community they’ll probably willingly stop when the community stops supporting it. Should they become a nuisance then the community has learned how to handle that.
Cops don’t lose their backing when the local community wants them out.
“Chancellor Palpatine will probably willingly give up his emergency powers when the Separatist crisis is over.”
Chancellor palpatine had the state backing him. That was the point of the election and padme’s quote of applaus or whatever.
When a few people lose the support of the community they’re just a few people, isolated, and a lot less scary than ice while being susceptible to the same community response.
“So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous applause.”
Pretty fucking apt quote, now that you mention it.
To be fair the empire is significantly better on race issues.
Consider the fact that police have co-opted the right and responsibility for community defense from the citizenry and hold that responsibility captive from us every day, so that they can abuse it only to divide, oppress, and disorganize us as a class. If a community of neighbors decide that they need a checkpoint to protect each other then they do, and the only reason that recalls cops in our heads is because for our whole lives cops are the only context we’ve had for anything that looks remotely like the right to organization that they’ve stolen.
Consider the fact that police have co-opted the right and responsibility for community defense from the citizenry and hold that responsibility captive from us every day, so that they can abuse it only to divide, oppress and disorganize us as a class.
I am very much considering that. That’s both the reason why I don’t immediately condemn non-cops doing it out of hand AND why I’m wary of what’ll happen once they’ve been doing it long enough that they’re used to it/it’s been normalized.
Most cops started out working or lower middle class and betrayed their class to become the hired thugs of the rich. People starting to do cop type things with good intentions aren’t always immune to the temptation to let it change them.
the only reason that recalls cops in our heads is because for our whole lives cops are the only context we’ve had for anything that looks remotely like the right to organization that they’ve stolen
Not really, no. There’s myriad different ways to organize your community that isn’t cop stuff like the car version of Stop & Frisk. What’s that quote about using the master’s tools to liberate ourselves not working?
You’ve offered no alternatives.
And if you put “inconvenience” and “nuisance” on a scale opposite to “beaten” and “executed in the street”, I don’t think they’d land even.
It does feel weird because it is weird in a weird situation where it is needed. If ICE leaves the situation gets less weird and these people can go back to their normal lives.
How dare the citizenry try to challenge the government’s monopoly on violence?
It’s not weird at all. It’s called operant conditioning: Instead bombing Nazis, freeing victims in deathcamps, heck even hunting nazis, they have become Nazis themselves, gestapoing non in-groups in their community “for their protection.”
It is precisely this conditionate praxis why I have given up on 🇺🇲ans ever revolting. They have become the very thing they fought against.
so much incorrect. let’s just start with the accusation they have become cops. just flat out wrong
Then why are they watching who comes in or not in their community? What’s the point of barricading their entrances? Why are they even stopping traffic for?
Liberators would have already demolished deathcamps. Noncombatants would be feeding, sheltering, and networking with the victims. And the combat ready would be bombing Lockheed Martin, Palantir, SpaceX, Amazon, Google, Meta, OpenAI, et al.
What’re “cops” to you?
Sounds like an interesting plot line. Let us know when your screenplay is complete.
Glad that you at the least are aware 🇺🇲ans will never do this🙃
Now time to chant the reality: 🇺🇲ans are all fascists.
