So now we can add “directly capturing a sovereign leader” to the list of crap the US has done. So what do you think will actually be “the straw that broke the camels back” for world leaders to actually do something? Think it’ll be significant or something mundane?
I hate to say it, but there’s no fast answer to that question.
The best answer seems to be what most smart countries are doing right now… slowly unwinding their dependency on the US and finding alternative suppliers for everything critical they need so they can get the leverage they need to criticize and resist. This has the added benefit of isolating the US economically, reducing its currency’s ability to influence things.
Over time the US will grow less and less able to throw its weight around, and eventually a tipping point will be reached where picking an ideological fight with the US won’t have a major impact. That’s when the US will be stopped.
Logically that makes sense for an elongated timeline, but that also assumes the US doesn’t ramp up their actions, which sadly seems to be the case. So the question is “what then?”
Nations can’t ignore the fact that the US has one of the most active militaries in the world. Our Navy is more of less second to none and we have nukes. In the hands of a normal president, we might be fine but you sure as heck know that Trump and his Project 2025 people are just itching to launch one.
This is a situation where there are no good options. The best you can do is continue political pressure, get other nations to rally behind you in the hopes of creating a strong economic resistance.
But the real answer is that we, the US citizens, need to fucking take this country back. I hate to say it but protests simply aren’t enough anymore.
Protests would be a good start
Protests only work if the government feels beholden to its people. It doesnt. Protests arent enough.
Strikes, not protests. Put the country literally to a halt
There are protests constantly. There was a protest outside the Whitehouse the same day as the Maduro kidnapping.
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Thank God the protest people are here. They were constantly on Reddit for the last four years saying how Russians need to protest against the dictatorship. Good thing Russians heard that and had the massive protest of Bolotnaya in 2011 and endless protests in the far-east and northern regions in particular. As we know, Russia is a thriving democracy now thanks to the protests. I was wondering when USians are gonna protest away their own tsar.
also the worlds largest air force is the US air force. the second largest is the US army’s air force iirc
Remove the bases in europe and you can only project power with as many you can pile up on an aircraft carrier.
B-2 bombers have a huge range of 11,000 km, that’s extended further by tanker aircraft. They can strike any target in the world. They are better with a fighter escort though, that don’t have that range, and only a single pilot, shortening possible mission time.
The US also has bases around the world outside of Europe. These could be shifted elsewhere, depending on need. The American military is a phenomenal logistics machine. They can fly and ship immense amounts of materiel and can construct huge bases quickly.
There are several middle eastern and Asian countries that host large American bases. The big bases built in Europe, especially Germany act as a hub for the ones in Africa and the Middle East. A place for supplies, hospitals, training, etc. in a safe and nice place.
China is still a fair bit away from having that kind of power projection.
I seem to remember reading that the US navy comes in second (which makes sense considering that a single carrier has a larger air wing than most countries air forces) but the point still stands.
The best answer seems to be what most smart countries are doing right now… slowly unwinding their dependency on the US and finding alternative suppliers for everything critical they need so they can get the leverage they need to criticize and resist. This has the added benefit of isolating the US economically, reducing its currency’s ability to influence things.
What Mainland China is trying to do: win over countries alienated or considered hostile by the Americans.
I think the wealthy will get US/corporate-friendly far-right governments in place in many of these countries before countries are able to isolate the US without collapsing their own economy. Seems to be the way things are going at least (far-right politics gaining support nearly everywhere).
I hate to say it, but there’s no fast answer to that question.
There’s is indeed a fast and peaceful answer: vote third parties.
Doesn’t work in single vote winner-takes-all elections. You need something like RCV first
Or proportional representation, or a mixed system.
Doesn’t work in single vote winner-takes-all elections.
If a third party get 70% of the votes they don’t end up in power?
What happens in reality is they get 10% of the second most credible party and Maga wins.
In reality all parties have the same change of winning in elections.
Not in a winner takes it all.
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Look up the spoiler effect
Ah yes, because the Democrats are just as bad and would’ve done all this anyway!!! Why did nobody else think of that!!!
I don’t get you comment, the democrats are not a third party.
Remember kids, in first past the post a vote for third party is a vote for republicans.
Stop spreading non sense and propaganda.
Fucking educate yourself. This is why the world thinks Americans are fucking stupid. So many of us don’t understand basic fuckin civics like this chucklefuck right here not knowing jack shit about spoilers. Half of Americans too fuckin dumb to know they’re carrying ruspublican water.
Fucking educate yourself.
Same goes for you, educate yourself and try to write better comments
Delicious irony.
World war 3
Or just a US revolution could work. We don’t have to kill everyone.
That would be a good solution but world war 3 looks more probable
you misspelled profitable.
Not if you are the loser in the war
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That’s part of what Sarah Kendzior has argued for a decade or more. US companies and klepocrats (though I repeat myself) know that the only thing that can match their weight is a powerful federal government. Turning the US into 50 (or more) warring little nations will make it easier to carve up. They have already done this to a large extent with the poorer states under the guise of “state’s rights”. It is also why they run a perennial effort to break up California and it is undoubtedly why the right’s other “big project” is to destabilize the European Union.
For whom? Even those making nuclear weapons, have a high chance of dying in the war, have their possessions destroyed, their investments ruined.
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Half of America actively support this shit. They are a LONG way from doing anything about this themselves.
Not even 1/4th, and that’s counting the stupid, ignorant and disconnected. 77M of 342M voted for him.
And even among MAGA, money says I could hammer on my fascist neighbor’s door and ask him why the fuck Trump kidnapped the President of Venezuela and he wouldn’t have a clue what I was talking about.
People who stayed home with fascism on the ballot are as good as fascists themselves.
i dont think so at all tbh. theyre both victims of propaganda, but id argue the ones who became fascist are leagues worse than the ones who became apathetic.
Shame on all the children who didn’t go vote for Harris.
So half your country won’t be moaning and denouncing and overall being sad next time and assassination attempt is made against Trump, right?
… Right anakin?
Yeah, right.
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The other half is almost completely oblivious or just doesn’t care what the US does abroad. They only start caring when American soldiers start dying in significant numbers, like in Iraq and Afghanistan. I definitely agree with the other poster who said WW 3 would be a more likely scenario than US revolution because of actions like this.
How is the US population to unite, self organize into militias and erect barricades with the current surveillance state and social media polarization?
Americans are staying at home doom scrolling and getting angry about their scarecrow neighbors they are made to dislike.
We know for sure that Americans are not ready to do anything more than voting and praying to answer any form of the social question. Haven’t been for a while. We’re on the slope of them not caring about the political question either. It’s all bread, circuses and surveillance algorithms.
Don’t forget about the Sword of Damocles that is the lack of social safety nets. Also, political ignorance is a feature, not a bug in our political system. A quarter of the American population would kill the rest because they think the regime is “hurting the right kind of people” and not anybody that they care about. This also includes the minorities who will soon learn that being “one of the good ones” just means that they go to the showers later rather than sooner.
I share your pessimism. My answer had nothing to do with what might actually happen.
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Morons like this guy after why people hate Americans.
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That will make them even richer…
Not if they are the losers of the war
So the destruction of life on this planet? Yeah you’re right.
I am just predicting. I wish a more peaceful way
just vote Democrat
jesus, we live in a world of tankies
you are as bas as the tankies for defending the lesser of the warmongers
It might have already happened…
Capturing a foreign leader you’re not at war with like this is a huge fucking deal, but it hasn’t even been 24 hrs yet, we can’t act like there won’t be a response.
Not anything overt, but our election system is sloppy as fuck.
Why wouldn’t foreign governments start using all the loopholes to pay (relatively) nothing to limit his powers in midterms and get rid of him in the presidential? A couple million thru a PAC isn’t even really breaking any laws, and compared to the cost of the chaos from trump, it’s a no brainer decision.
It’s why turnout for primaries is so important. We have to ensure that the people who make it to the general are going to be good in office.
Friendly nations do not meddle in each others elections. Russia did to USA because they are NOT a friendly nation, and to sow discord. Israel does it to USA also because they are not a friendly nation, they are focused 100% on their own agenda, and that includes ensuring USA supports it.
Trump/MAGA has already intervened in elections in for instance EU, and that’s because USA is no longer a friendly nation to EU.
But I seriously doubt most of USA’s traditional allies will meddle in USA’s election, because it’s just not something you do as a civilized country, because it violates that country’s sovereignty.If you play by the rules while your enemy doesn’t, you’ll be destroyed. Machiavelli said as much. So USA’s traditional allies have to start playing dirty to survive.
I would be OK with giving Russia a taste of their own medicine. But it’s an area where I think we need to be very careful, and not participate too strongly in a race to the bottom.
The direction of this race won’t turn back upwards on its own
Exactly, there has to be pressure from the nations that still believe in the international rule of law.
Friendly nations do not meddle in each others elections.
A naive view. US has always promoted Atlanticist candidates, and has complete control over EU parliament appointees who are all pro NATO, and especially pro NATO subservience. That people view this as the will of the people, and the opposite, election interference is the greatest trick the devil ever pulled off.
Could you elaborate on the complete control over EU parliament appointees?
It’s Russian propaganda.
I’m assuming the same until shown otherwise with sufficient sources
The pro-antlanticism is the giveaway. I’ve never heard that term used outside of Russian propaganda.
Edit: hot goddamn the dudes profile is unhinged. I think we found Putin’s lemmy account because holy shit this dude sucks Russia off hard.
NATO approved parties select a list of pro NATO candidates who will be appointed to EU parliament based on CIA/Atlanticist tolerance/support for that party. There are 4 leftist representatives from Greece in EU whose party is divided about NATO, and who were suppressed in last election because of it. I’m unsure if the representatives specifically vote against all NATO BS Russophobia. Among NATO member nations AfD leads a group that include Bulgaria’s revival party (17 as a group). (Europe of Sovereign Nations). Both of these parties serve US interests of promoting divisiveness in EU. AfD has had direct boosting/interference for its behalf by Trump and Musk, and if they are ever able to have influence, NATO (performative rather than substantive) opposition will likely be rewarded by US, while simultaneously increasing US purchases. Orban’s party has 10 seats, and like other right wing parties, rationality towards Russia is an electoral asset that permits other oppression.
There are 419 absolute NATO cronies in EU parliament, and the election process ensures that the most devoted to NATO subjugation are appointed, because the CIA rewards the party for input on their list.
Sources? That’s a lot of claims without anything backing it up
Every single action, decision, and media content being pro Atlanticist is your cue that something is wrong. That CIA only interferes in Latin America or CIS states, but would leave its colonies alone is the absurdity that you would need to prove instead of the obvious reality.
To answer OP’s question. Idiots need to remove their bodysnatcher parasite that makes them agree with all US lies.
Rusprop!
You’re right this will (or should anyway) invite a major international response. But it won’t be attacking our elections.
It’ll be in international politics and economics.
Were I in charge of another nation, I’d immediately end all diplomatic ties with us. Deporting all US embassy/consolate staff and diplomats. Possibly even visa holders. I’d also end whatever exports my nation made to the US. Buying the goods from my nation’s companies myself. If my nations banks had any money of US nationals, it would be frozen.But that’s just me. We’ll see what they decide to do.
The visa holders are often the people fleeing the US, and will be especially catastrophic when he starts denaturalizing people and making them stateless while abroad
But who? The EU views Maduro as illegitimate, as does most of the US allies.
If other counties boycotted instead of caving into demands, that would have an influence.
This isn’t the first time the US has done
“directly capturing a sovereign leader”
No, this is different and completely unprecedented.
We went into a foreign country, abducted their leader, and brought him back to America to be tried under our justice system for laws he was never subject to for crimes he almost had nothing to do with.
I’d love to see a source for America abducting the leader of a country we’re not at war with, and bringing them to America for trial.
While the above poster is missing the particulars, this still is unprecedented - panama and the US were at war, and Noriega surrendered to US forces before being taken to the US. As far as I’m aware, brazen kidnapping like just happened with Maduro really is a new low for the US.
That was an invasion, not a kidnapping.
The first hint is the situation was called “invasion of Panama”
Operation Just Cause
🤣
I think we did that to Hawaii. And now it’s a state.
Nah, Hawaii was an invasion, I believe the Queen was travelling to DC.
She left Hawaii as a queen and when she got to Hawaii to negotiate a treaty, she was told Hawaii was already an American territory
The close enough for me. Going in to countries and fucking about then leaving them worse is kinda what we do unfortunately. Well I guess it’s what all countries who can do as well.
When you get the time it’s worth reading up on, super interesting and I’m surprised there hasn’t been a big movie about it despite America being the bad guys.
I listened to a podcast or two about it but it was a while ago.
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Can we do better than the rightwing rag, The Washington Examiner?
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Approximately 24,000 troops descended upon Panama in December 1989, beginning a weekslong siege of the country that scattered the government and military officials.
That’s an invasion, not a kidnapping…
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What are you talking about?
There’s no American troops there now.
If you’re arguing there’s going to be a response or separate action in the future, yes…
That’s how time works, there’s always something happen, obviously something will happen next
Don’t read much, do you?
Importantly other countries aren’t that mad about it either. I saw some posts about Trump making comments that seemed to suggest that mexico and canada could be targeted in the future for intervention related to drugs, so I went to canadian news sites to see what was up. The canadian government is basically like, “I’m not angry, I’m disappointed” and mostly because it goes against the norms of polite imperialism.
I won’t link to her twitter account, but here is the statement:
Alt text:
The Hon. Anita Anand Minister of Foreign Affairs
Since 2019, when Canada closed its embassy in Venezuela, we have refused to recognize any legitimacy of the Maduro regime and opposed its repression of the Venezuelan people, including the persecution of dissenters and particularly political leaders opposed to the regime.
In keeping with our long-standing commitment to upholding the rule of law and democracy, Canada calls on all parties to respect international law and we stand by the people of Venezuela and their desire to live in a peaceful and democratic society.
Canada is engaging with its international partners and monitoring developments closely.
Canada stands ready to assist Canadians in need through our consular officials and embassy in Bogotá, Colombia.
I think it’s the first time they do it without international support.
Yeah but it has been quite uneventful for 50 years, for what I know.
I think it has to be a major financial crash and/or a big war
I’m genuinely curious what would happen if the US lost nearly all of their foreign investors and all/nearly all of their major trading partners. (I understand that this is highly unlikely, but so was the thought that another world war would happen and happen in less than 50 years. I’m also tired of holding my breath on these things…)
The US as a country has vast natural resources, a lot of space, and a large educated population. There are two very long coasts, enabling trade by sea across the globe.
Investors fleeing and trade collapsing would lead to a major crisis and necessitate restructuring the economy. It’s important to remember that money leaving the country, doesn’t mean the physical assets like buildings, machines, trained workforce, and infrastructure leave as well. Production of goods for export would lead to too much supply of some things, with a lack of imported goods.
Lots of international trade could be replaced by domestic production. The US might actually be able to pull off an economy closed off to much of the world better than any other country. The reindustrialization and transformation of the economy would take a couple of years to a decade, with lots of hardship.
Still the US produces so much food and has an overproduction of pretty much all agricultural goods, that widespread hunger is unlikely. The agricultural sector already depends on subsidies snd regulation. So the bureaucracy and infrastructure is already in place to keep it going and steer it.
Culturally Americans are used to dynamic markets, adapting to change, and entrepreneurial spirit. That’s a further asset for being able to transform and economy.
Finally because of the easy access to the oceans and a powerful navy to protect their trade, the US can be very flexible regarding who they trade with. New tradingpartners will show up quickly.
Of course this discussion is a bit moot without talking about the world political stage this happens in.
tl;dr there would a shortage of goods, economic turmoil, no famine, stable energy production, likely a swift recovery
This reads like chatgpt. And is wildly unrealistically optimistic. And is wrong about American culture in a fundamental way and is ignoring bird flu, screw worm, and the upcoming dust bowl from mono culture industrial farming practices. Millions would die and it would take well over a decade just to ramp up manufacturing to make up for loss of imported goods. The country would ostensibly survive but it would look and act a lot more like Russia than it already does.
But mostly a major financial crash
And usually after/during a financial crash the US goes to war
World leaders should:
- Sell all US treasuries and buy gold instead
- Stop using the Dollar to trade with countries not involving America, use Euro, Yuan or gold instead
- Kick America from the SWIFT system or use an alternative system like China’s CIPS
- Stop using US tech like Google, Mera reddit, X etc
- Stop buying weapons from America
- Sanction America, just like they sanctioned Russia.
China and Russia are already doing most of these. So they’re not afraid to raise their voice against America.
Japan and UK (both struggling economies) hold the highest amount of US debt. Third is China which is steadily selling.
For starters, not relying on US payment processors.
USAmericans have shown a complete inability to rise up against their government. This is not surprising given our crushing economic system, the fragility of our lives, and cultural landscape of the USA. At this point I believe Resistance has to come from outside the USA. This is unlikely due to the USA’s extensive nuclear arsenal.
I foresee the USA going the way of China and Russia, steadily oppressing its people, enriching its oligarchs, and occasionally creating problems for the world. Greenland may very well be the USA’s version of China constantly threatening to seize Taiwan.
complete worldwide boycott of american products. America is run by oligarchs who only care about money. They’d fold overnight.
Not a boycott of products, a divestment from the dollar and the US stock market. Sell all treasury bonds. It’s possible.
Using the Euro as the standard currency for oil would do it in a week.
Either the US invades Europe to prevent it or the country collapses.
EU is America’s bitch. Countries are already using the Yuan to buy oil. Every country trades with China so every country needs yuan.
That’s impossible at the moment. The USA dominates the software industry. No modern economy can run without relying on American software. Replacing that would be hard, maybe impossible.
Take the first steps. Here are things you can do right now:
- Stop using Microsoft Office especially stop using Office 365 and switch to Libreoffice.
- Stop using Windows and switch to Linux.
- Stop using Reddit and switch to Lemmy (for other people, not you since you’re already here)
- Cancel your OpenAI/ChatGPT/Copilot subscriptions if you have those.
- Most importantly stop using Twitter if you use that and urge everyone else to do likewise. Bluesky I really like but it’s technically based in the US too but rewarding non-rightwing companies is like positive reinforcement. I haven’t seen enough people talk about using both the carrot and the stick. There’s also Mastodon which is great but some people feel it’s more for “techy” type people.
Yea but to do that you need decent channels to coordinate and you all deleted all your accounts and the network you built with it. It would take 10 years just to recreate it.
Let’s just go back to hyper focusing on AI slop
At this point, I feel tempted to make an MML hallucinate that it is some sort of…allied master computer.
Yea, you’re super smart. Special guy. You’re so special and smart.
Time. A regime as dysfunctional as this can’t go on indefinitely… Like, it is physically impossible for it to think far enough ahead for it to be resilient enough to last. Unfortunately, a lot of good people will suffer before then.
My best guess is mass riots/civil war. The main reasons why it’s not happening yet are because Trump still has a good number of supporters and because Americans are - rightfully - afraid of their police (or soldiers) killing them.
Trump is steadily losing his supporters every week, and the number of people at risk of dying due to lack of food or healthcare is increasing. If your life is at serious risk anyway, might as well get a shot at a revolution. And the more people willing to do it with you, the better the chances.
However, I’m not sure how realistic this scenario is. I’m concerned that a change of government for a slightly better one may be enough for most Americans to calm down. After all, they’re very much used to being abused by their elites, whether they realize it or not.
At this point, every single country should be embargoing the US. It’s well past that point that we cut them off from the world stage entirely economically.
Realistically, global trade drying up. Canada, Mexico, the EU, and others just refusing to do business with the US. Or possibly, making deals on a state-by-state basis, such as exchanging with California and New York, while ignoring Texas. By doing something like that, foreign nations can help prop up anti-conservative states, while bleeding conservatives lily white.
Mutual military agreements, such as retooling NATO to exclude the US and incorporating Canada, Mexico, and Taiwan might happen as well. The US has ceded their mutual exchange with Taiwan, other powers like India would like to have those chips. Maybe the EU outright allying with Ukraine, to remove Russia from play and to secure Ukraine’s grain, oil, and expertise on warfare.
…In short, it would be a couple decades of work to stop the Turdpublican agenda through diplomatic pressure. Probably around a decade if WW3 or a 2nd American Civil War happens.
Literally NOTHING.
The us has the largest military by far even when combining the contenders militaries. Add to that most world “leaders” are feckless cowards just looking for their next payout. There will be no stopping the US. :(
The US may think they are invulnerable, but they are far from it, the world can crash the US economy in a couple of hours.
Problem is it would hurt the rest of the world too, although not as bad as it would be for USA.
But there needs to be very strong arguments for doing it. Still there has already been hints of the “nuclear” option by EU against USA if USA continues to behave as poorly as they have this past year. The nuclear option being a 10 point EU plan to retaliate economically against USA. Needless to say that before Trumps 2nd term, such a plan didn’t even exist! But with Trumps 2nd term EU has moved surprisingly quickly, as have many European countries individually.
Also China has its own nuclear option in just selling off US treasury bonds. That would make it very hard for USA to finance the federal deficits, and could collapse the American federal government.
But apart from that China could sanction USA on for instance rare earth minerals, that would make it impossible for USA to compete in several high tech products. The threat of this made Trump pull back on trade hostilities against China very quickly.The US economy depends on the rest of the world to be the size it is. And without the economy to finance the military, USA will not be able to maintain a military the size they currently have.
China could sanction USA on for instance rare earth minerals
China doesn’t even care about its own people, them sanctioning USA for something that doesn’t affect them at all is a far cry.
The most they’ll do is make a statement about international laws and such and then go right back to business.
Our branches of military are individually bigger than other entire militaries.
We hold the slots one and two for air force. Our air force being 1 and our navy being the second largest air force in the world.
I’m not saying that’s a good thing but it’s like when the huge guy in the bar cat calls your girl. And the big guy is dumb and crazy like trump.
The world’s largest military which still managed to lose both Vietnam and Afghanistan within living memory.
It’s not THAT hopeless.
It’s one thing for the US to lose an offensive war, it’s another thing entirely for anybody else to think of dicking with them on their home turf
The answer, then, is a homegrown guerilla force, but the ones most likely to do that are already in power
I don’t think this will work either. If Trump pulls the insurrection card, he’ll just use drone strikes to obliterate any homegrown force. Sure, US citizens are armed up. But the arms that citizens have are meaningless when it comes to things like high altitude drones.
I think this is what people outside of the US forget when they call for 2A people to rise up. The US government has made the second amendment relatively meaningless in regards to it’s original purpose. Kind of hard to fight back when you get vaporized by a dot in the sky.
I personally think hurting the upper class in the wallet is the only way anything in the US will change. Could be done through a general strike by US citizens (although at the time being I think this is unlikely to happen, given how little money people in the working class have. they have to be able to eat and be sheltered to weather the strike, after all), or by other countries sanctioning and messing with bonds.
Edit: if you originally meant homegrown as in US citizens. if not, carry on.
if you originally meant homegrown as in US citizens
That was indeed what I meant, though I was being a bit facetious about the whole thing
You really think the US military would start killing their own on the command from the president?
From what my buddy in the US Army tells me there’s a lot of political maneouvering going on that basically circumvents a lot of shit that Elon’s stupid ass tried to force on them.
Let’s just say that I wouldn’t be surprised if they could find some gravy seals willing to kill citizens.
The us has a great track record of losing guerilla wars.
Honestly we would probably fall to pieces if anyone invaded the lower 48. The population is not ready for wartime on our soilOne thing I’ve always said is the US is so arrogant because it’s extremely isolated geographically and has never had a direct large scale war on its infrastructure or land in the past 150 years.
Exactly - It will take a long time for the American military to lose superiority. Look how much materiel the Russian army still has, even though their economy is terrible they are still a nuclear power.
There will be no stopping the US
Not from the outside. That’s why the American people need to do it.
The us has the largest military by far even when combining the contenders militaries.
While I agree with your conclusion, I don’t agree that military size has much to do with it. If you’re speaking of personnel numbers, what you claim is far from accurate. You may be thinking of military expenditures, where you may possibly have a point. However, consider that the US military wastes tons of money on very expensive gear (much of the navy and air force, for instance) that wouldn’t help much in modern warfare (drones, etc.).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/air-force-overpaid-8000-percent-soap-dispensers-military-aircraft/
Do we suspect the US military will remain under consistent, united control under a cunt loser dictator like trump? We saw how they marched at his “military parade” (which was so hilariously lame that he very literally wanted a do-over)
China already won the late game. We just need a few decades fornit to play out.
I was wondering if e.g. Putin could do that with Zelenskyy and I believe the answer is no. I believe the people would still resist and fight. However, I’m not very sure with my answer.
A resistance of the general population would be hard to break, even with massive military effort. There’s a big difference between people fighting for money and people fighting with intrinsic motivation.
