This meme is from 2004. History repeats itself.
It’s important to note that the real disparity may be even far worse.
OCHA-OPT (the committee gathering this data) is strict about verifying validity of Palestinian casualties, requiring two independent, verified and non-affiliated sources. Casualties in Israel, however, they trust the media at face value. They also exclude a lot of Palestinian casualties even when verified in certain situations. Example, and I quote them:
People who were killed or injured in conflict-related incidents that took place in Israel and did not involve residents of the oPt are also excluded.
oPt (occupied Palestinian territories) are the areas that Israel does not directly oversee. So most of Israel is not oPt by their criteria.
Israel is notorious for restricting journalists reporting on Israeli crimes, and has murdered journalists countless of times, like last year the Christian Palestinian Shireen Abu Akleh reporting on the forced expulsion of Palestinians from Sheikh Jarrah (so not even in a war zone area). This causes many casualties to go unverified and thus undocumented.
And Israel has been caught lying before about its own casualties, like the 40 beheaded babies.
Take that as you will.
That 2023 number is about to get way more lopsided.
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Imagine how things may go if Israel attempted to use Jews as human shields against Hamas.
You mean like putting many settlements and civilians right on the border of Gaza, a concentration camp and active war Zone? Or allowing a rave dance to occur at the gates of a concentration camp and active war zone, and next to a military base that would be targeted by Hamas? And sprinkle in some IDF tanks while you’re at it.
Wait, we don’t have to imagine it.
Didn’t look like you’re replying to anyone supporting Hamas.
Also, there is an alternative #2 in your scenario. “Know your enemy would lose too much western support too readily if they were to fine on all the civilian targets they would like to”.
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No. Hundreds of thousands will die in response to hundreds dying. The comic is still fully accurate even if “a single missile” is still condemnable.
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Shall we begin an era of endless terror by proving it works?
Just look at the US military, we already have
This isn’t a good reason
I felt just like this after 9/11. I don’t know enough about your country to tell you what the right thing to do is. But I wish that the USA could go back in time and just gradually assassinate Al Queda with the CIA instead or something. Those occupations were doomed from the start.
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Where did I mock the victims? Do not put words in my mouth. Can you not make a half-sound argument without lying?
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From what I can see, @matcha_addict@lemy.lol is not mocking the victims of this tragedy, but rather criticising the media for writing about the israeli deaths caused by the hamas attack, yet hardly making a sound about the palestine deaths caused by israel.
It IS NOT a disproportionate representation. THAT’S THE POINT.
I am very sorry you fail to realize what death Israel will doll out in response, but this comic is completely accurate in the proportions displayed.
You LITERALLY have fighter jets and bombers striking back against … paragliders with guns…
Again, NO ONE except fucking losers are saying Hamas did anything good. That doesn’t make murdering dozens of thousands of Palestinians OK.
I don’t think disproportionate response doctrine from countries like the US and Israel should come as a surprise after more than half a century of conflict. Why murder 100 innocent people of your opponent when you know they will murder 1000 innocents of your people in response?
The issue isn’t whether anyone is surprised by it.
When it comes to war, there can be no holdbacks because hesitation means life or death.
So anyone who follows the Geneva Conventions is a doomed fool?
“history repeats itself” as in the people who only condemn needless killing when Hamas does it, but ignore the Palestinian cause the rest of the time.
It’s almost like motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances matter and not just body count. For example, intentionally targeting civilians to maximize civilian deaths is not the same as accidentally killing civilians with collateral damage while trying to minimize civilian deaths.
Guess which side this is, then:
Scores of people, mainly women and children, have been killed in multiple air strikes on the main road connecting north and south Gaza, as people carried out an Israeli order to flee their homes.
According to the Ministry of Health, at least 70 people have been killed in three separate air strikes on the road, with the latest killing at least 40.
The Israeli army said in a statement on Friday that civilians must leave Gaza City in the north, and that they would not be allowed to return “until we say so” and until “a statement is issued allowing this”.
However, locals have reported a number of attacks on the Salah al-Din Road since then. Survivors, speaking to local media, implored others not to make the journey for fear of being targeted by the Israelis.
“Do not leave,” a distraught survivor of the attacks told local media.
“They bombed the convoy. They bombed it on Salah al-Din Road. They bombed the ambulances.”
Another survivor said the attacks were a “direct targeting of women and children”.
“I was in the truck. There were about 200 people. 90 percent were women and children. We took the main road that the entire world knew we were taking. My entire family were with me. Out of nowhere, they dropped a bomb. Everything was black and I lost conscience for 10 mins,” they told local media.
“When I woke up I saw a mother lying with her baby, whose brain was right next to him. I heard the ambulances then they bombed again. I took cover and after a few minutes tried to check the damage, then they bombed again.”
When Israeli soldiers are bragging about raping and torturing people, it’s very clear what their intentions are
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Did they just downvote you for asking a source? is this reddit all over again?
Hamas’ official policy is resisting occupation and massacre, not committing it.
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The burden of proof lies on the person making a claim. But sure, I’ll still respond. From Hamas’ official website:
Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine. Yet, it is the Zionists who constantly identify Judaism and the Jews with their own colonial project and illegal entity.
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I addressed something similar to the first article you linked in another comment. The gist is that, no, that is not their official policy, and that contradicts with their official charter, posted on their official website.
while trying to minimize civilian deaths
If that’s what they’re trying to do, they really fucking suck at it.
And the motivation, methods, intentions, and circumstances don’t matter a bit to the victims and their loved ones.
While they do certainly look different, the end result of a death by malice or by ignorance is the same.
Yes, it’s not a perfect caricature, Crimea river
Rules of the internet: you can safely discard everything that comes before the “, but”
If ignoring context helps you feed your bias, go for it.
The soundness of your argument should not depend on your stance. It is a common tactic to state that you are “pro-X” but criticize X, because people are more likely to sympathize with your criticism that way. The commenter you replied to is simply reminding us of this.
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Yes the Israelis don’t kill children for throwing rocks and then call them soldiers
Ignoring of course the countless children they kill who aren’t part of hamas. The ratio of children to adults killed by Israel can only be reached by doing it on purpose.
You “switching sides” because you don’t like the media reporting on these murders is a joke and I can only assume a lie, because it doesn’t make sense.
The media reporting stuff doesn’t change what is happening nor the morals and ethics involved. Silly to blame the media for you choosing to support the murder of innocents.
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How convenient, when israel kills civilians its because palestine is hiding behind them, in their own country, being bombed. Its only heartless civilian massacres the other way around.
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So civilians killed by israel are even more egregious then. Like that strike on evacuees that just happened.
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Don’t try to claim moral superiority in a blood feud where both sides commit atrocities.
As if the cartoon this thread is about wasn’t claiming moral superiority for the other side.
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They are a violent resistance movement, opposing a violent colonialist movement.
Israel is expanding into the West Bank, not Gaza. They are resisting nobody. Israel even removed all of its citizens from that area. They are terrorists. They are founded by and doing the bidding for Iran.
I’d like to add even more context: ~45% of Palestine is under the age of 14.
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Palestinians do not have consistent access to clean water, no I don’t think they have consistent access to condoms.
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FYI links to her study, about Demography, not access to contraception - lead to a 404 page.
Here’s a prrtty informal survey about Gazan access to contraception, it sort of suggests they have, like I said, inconsistent access to contraception.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31856794/
The article you linked to makes many excellent points. When you’re poor, bored, and chock full of bombing-induced PTSD, having many kids is seen as a good idea.
It isn’t anti-Semitism to criticize israel, it’s just noticing the obvious.
My favorite was when Bernie Sanders was called antisemitic for criticizing Israel. His response was something along the lines of “It isn’t antisemitic to criticize a right-wing government in Israel.” It must’ve taken all the patience in the world to not add “you fucking toolbags”.
I’m not a Christian, but if Bernie was the second coming…
I’d be only slightly surprised
There are criticisms that are antisemitic. This isn’t one of them, though.
Fascists get away with conflating Judaism and Zionism because they don’t teach that Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judaism, and actually goes against a lot of their values. It’s actually been around for quite awhile; you know the crusades, when they went around killing a bunch of civilians to set up settlements? Those were Christian Zionists.
That’s why it’s anti-semitic to conflate the two. One is a religion and the other is a fascist genocidal colonialist movement. So next time you see some german lady shouting down a holocaust survivor for calling out Israeli apartheid (yes, this literally happened, and it was the Jewish guy who got punished) you’ll see it for what it is. It’s not complicated, it’s a clear cut case of modern day nazism.
Amen, who was it who said that the way to find out what group is getting away with too much bullshit is to look at what group you’re not allowed to criticize in any Circle?
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and like a football match, people are watching it happen live on youtube
This real time information spread during the Ukrainian invasion and this, is so crazy.
Unfortunately, those that don’t fall under what you’re describing simply don’t comment because they know it’s a massive, nuanced issue, so all you’re seeing are the loudest, least nuanced voices
I think it’s technically a thousands of years quagmire.
Nope. It began in late 19th century at the earliest.
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I hope more of you fake nuanced people go back to Reddit.
“bro please bro it’s complicated bro you can’t oppose apartheid bro have you not considered it’s complicated bro? Please bro you have to maintain status quo”
I agree with the comic. I do however disagree with the title. I think the Hamas’ attack shouldn’t to be called “resistance”, just as Israel’s response shouldn’t be called “self defense”.
This! Was searching the whole comment section and wanted to post it just now and luckily hit refresh.
I agree with you that it needs to be clarified further. While I think it is still “resistance” in the sense that it was done with the intention to resist occupation and all what Israel does, I do agree that civilians died that didn’t need to, and it did not lead to positive results.
When you live your whole life in a concentration camp and get bombed almost daily, you may lose some rationality and start justifying more things in the name or resistance. Ultimately I blame Israel for putting them in this situation, and putting civilians so close to their border.
In the end, my whole point is that Hamas attack must not justify a response from Israel. It should lead us to pull back instead.
Take a look at this guy’s other Palestine Israel Post and decide if you wanna upvote this terrorist enjoyer.
https://lemy.lol/post/11080592 for the curious.
On Lemmy, you firstly see the message before the messenger. That is something that makes it magical, it clears your self-history and allow you to have a free mind on ideas presented.
“The genocide must stop” is what you consider to be terrorism? Oh yeah, you must be from the west, where terrorism is resisting massacre.
there is no bigger terrorist than Israel.
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Israel is fighting against all of Palestine, not just Hamas.
who are cowardly hiding behind civilians
Israel won’t let civilians outside of Gaza. They want Hamas to be among civilians. Moreover, Israel brutalizes Palestinians who live inside Israeli borders, without Hamas troops present.
I think you are stretching. They don’t want civilians mixed in with hamas. The political damage it does to them is not insignificant. But there is no way they can tell which people are civilians to let out and which are civilians. Not saying they are the good guys either though.
They absolutely do. Their goal is ethnic cleansing. Every Israeli policy is about forcing Palestinians outside of Palestine. Why else are most Palestinians never allowed to come back if they leave, or given hell for it in the minority cases that they are?
You can absolutely verify a civilian. Are you kidding me?!! You guys will say anything to justify keeping people in a concentrstjon camp. I can’t believe the degree of heartlessness.
As you claim others will say anything, you do litterally that. You claim to know the minds and intentions of how many people? Are you a mind reader? Clairvoyant? And I doubt you have knowledge of even 1% of the Isreali policies, yet claim they all have one goal.
Do you even know you can support a side without spewing false BS. There are plenty of reasonable arguments, but you choose to sound like someone on fox news instead. You hurt your cause more then help it.I did not mean literally every written rule of Israel. I obviously do not have the bandwidth to read them all. But Israel’s policy against Palestinians is that. I’m sure you knew what I meant.
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Their “warning” consists of shooting a smaller missile at the roof of a building a few minutes before the main missile. Obviously a great and super effective warning
What good does a warning do?
Hey, I’m about to obliterate your neighborhood in 12 hours. Get ready.
Gee thanks, don’t know what I would’ve done. Now I’m sure you’ll at least let me seek refuge in the territories you occupy, Israel, right? Right?!!
Hamas missiles target military installations, not civilians. Israel has the modern weaponry to only target the militants, whereas Hamas doesn’t. Yet Israel’s casualties have magnitudes more of civilians than Hamas, despite their imprecise weapons.
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Hamas seems to have developed a home-grown rocket manufacturing capability
That exactly tells you why it’s so imprecise. Israel has weapons created by the world’s top rocket scientists and the most precise manufacturing facilities, and for Hamas it’s people who barely have couple hours of electricity per day putting something together in one of the most densely populated areas, full of rubble and destruction.
When I say they “target” military facilities, I mean that’s what they aim for. Not that they have the high military capabilities to never miss.
Moreover, Hamas has, in recent days, specifically targeted Israeli civilians
I don’t deny that there are individuals in Hamas who have targeted civilians or killed them needlessly. Hamas is a resistance militia and not a hive mind. Unfortunately, living your entire life in a concentration camp with limited food and electricity, watching families burning alive and buildings coming down may lead you to hate people who are rave dancing on the gates of your open air prison, or even the regular civilians. It is not rational, but it is bound to happen. And because of this, I blame Israel.
And I don’t blame Israel to absolve Hamas of blame. Hamas leadership is complicit in ignoring civilian killing, I do not deny this. But blaming Hamas will drive no significant change. The root cause of these issues is Israel. At the very least, the civilian killings are usually individual actions, and Hamas’ military campaigns target the military. Whereas for Israel, civilians are target, and Hamas is their tool to convince Israelis that bombing Gaza is good.
What israel did was, they gave warnings to civilians whenever they target any building but there’s no perfect system that can precisely hit the target and prevent casualities.
“No Perfect System”
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-gaza-area-bombed-after-warning-to-move
This reminds me of that movie where the bad guy takes a bunch of hostages as a human shield and the good guy just kills all of them so he can kill the bad guy. Wait… that never happens
That movie was called Sri Lanka I believe
Wait what? Are you seriously comparing this to a movie?
Nah I’m saying you have less moral understanding than most basic hollywood movies.
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I would not equate the too. Not to mention, Israel sponsored Hamas.
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I’m sorry, but are you the arbiter of all emotional responses?
Also, are “imaginary blood beliefs” and “resisting massacre” the same to you? Because you act like they are.
This feels more like an excuse to disengage than understand or criticize.
Didn’t you read what he wrote? He, acting as our representative, has already made it clear that we, all third parties, don’t care and just want to watch the world burn. Get in line!
makes me care less
What has your hesitant caring (if even true) achieved before? Is there anything lost that we should worry about?
We actually much rather you take a step back and leave us. Please start by telling your governments to gtfo of Middle east and stop all intervention. We don’t want you.
Is this cartoon originally about the US invading the middle east? Looks like the twin towers in there.
Now your upvote counter is the twin towers.
EDIT: And if you think about it, my upvote counter is the twin towers shortly after
EDIT2: Too far! Too far!
I laughed
Upvote this to the front page so that lemmy world sees it.
Hard to notice something when you close your eyes and plug your ears
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im not pro palestine im anti israel
war is hell, neither side is good, but resistance is only human
Why not pro Palestine? They are the resistance to Israel.
It’s possible for both sides of a conflict to suck.
It is possible. But in this case, it is occupier vs occupied. An ethnoreligious state vs stateless people being ethnically cleansed. Something being possible doesn’t make it factual.
Life is not a Marvel movie
Then act like it
I’m not parsing people parading around with corpses for their “resistance ✊” just because they would make a good “opressed good guy” in a movie
Is there a coherent argument here for me to respond to? If so, state it clearly and directly. Your movie analogy makes no sense.
It would have been okay if they just lived their live peacefully and actually cared to improve. But no, “we need more land and more people over the world seeing how we kill civilians”. This is so going to work for sure, yeah.
free palestine
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While I agree with you about Hamas, the fact you don’t apply the same logic to the IDF is very telling. A country that believes a whole group of people are less than human and wants them eradicated absolutely intends every casualty it inflicts.
Israeli snipers murder innocent children, journalists and medical staff because of evil intentions.
Israeli bombs dropped on one of the densest populated areas which are bound to inflict civilian casualties are doing their intended evil.
The choice to turn off the electricity even though it will guarantee deaths in hospitals is not bad luck and is evil.
Israel is evil.
In fact if we’re going by civilian casualties Israel is like 36x more evil.
Why can’t they be compared? People killed with a knife are just as dead as people killed with a missile.
Hamas wanted to kill as many citizens of Israel as possible
Source?
This is false. Hamas is not free of criticism, they did commit needless killing of civilians, but their main target remains the IDF. This is contrasted with Israel, whose target is civilians.
Even the music festival was located right next to the Re’im base. The festival itself had Israeli gunned men and tanks. Again, I do not condemn the civilians needlessly killed by some Hamas members, but the operation’s target was the military.
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