Next time, Gort will install Debian and save himself the trouble
I wish I could have it as easy as Gort. I miss my debian but I want that ZFS built into my kernel.
There is so many distros that are just ubuntu without snaps, is just a matter of picking one of them
Over time, Canonical will replace close to everything with Snaps. Ubuntu Remixes are not the solution. They just count towards Ubuntu’s installed base and validate Canonical.
Honestly i agree, that’s why i love that more and more debian based distros are emerging, lot of times from distros that used to be based on ubuntu
that’s why i love that more and more debian based distros are emerging
How many votes in Debian councils does Canonical own these days? The systemd vs Upstart discussion and vote at Debian was so protracted because Canonical bought votes in Debian’s Technological Council.
I didn’t knew that, the canonical influence on debian can really become a problem down the line. I will also checkout more about what canonical did along the years
systemd vs Upstart began almost exactly 10 years ago: https://www.phoronix.com/news/MTQ5NzQ
When I tried looking up current affiliations, I was either super clumsy in googling or potential conflicts of interests are simply not documented. https://www.debian.org/intro/organization.en.html lists the members but not who sponsors their work and googling each name individually is a bit too much for what’s only superficial curiosity on my part, so I’m honestly out of the loop who is being paid by Canonical these days.
What do you have to change to make it not count towards their numbers?
Not access their repositories would be one thing because the only somewhat close approximation of installed base is through repository accesses.
This is what I fear as well. I’m still running Kubuntu, as I have been for years. Next time I build a system it may just be time for Debian Testing or sid. I’ve been messing with both on some Intel NUCs I have laying around.
Do you know if they use ubuntu’s kernel? That is my sticking point.
Most of them use, unless you pick something like pop os that has it’s own kernel packages it will use the default ubuntu kernel
can you name a few?
Pop os, linux mint, linux lite, etc.
The first 2 may do a lot pf changes to the base but that’s what make them better them ubuntu in my opinion
Check out the kernel packages from Proxmox, they build ZFS into a debian kernel.
Yo! Best advice I’ve gotten, thank you!
I’d consider Arch too if you’re running ZFS on a client machine, there are like 5 kernel packages
in the
archzfsrepo with ZFS baked in. I got tired of constantly rolling my own updated Debian packages for software a few years ago and made the jump to Arch and I’m really happy with it, the packaging and build system are a joy to work with compared to debs.No disrespect intended to Debian here I just got tired of building so many packages to have updated software. EndeavourOS is a good place to start in the Arch ecosystem if you ever feel like checking it out. I run Proxmox on my server boxes as well.
I used to run arch back before the big /usr/lib migration.
I forgot what got me to change to debian but a buddy was talking up the rock hard stability and something dumb happened so I made the switch to debian.
I usually run it as a rolling release (need to point to the version type rather than the codename) in testing. More stable than arch but more recent than stable.
My big reason for wanting it built into a kernel from my source repo is then I don’t have to worry about some bullshit upgrade not actually updating the kernel module like it should have. Dealt with that a few too many times when using ZFS on debian.
I usually run it as a rolling release (need to point to the version type rather than the codename) in testing. More stable than arch but more recent than stable.
Yeah, this was me before I got tired of constantly building my own packages to have current versions of some software. I’ve been pretty content with Arch since I switched to it a few years ago, I still spend some time mucking with packages but nowhere near as much as before. My breaking point with Debian was a new Ryzen laptop a few years ago, I could either package my own kernel for it along with all of the platform software I needed or I could hop over to Arch and just build a patched kernel so I went for it.
My big reason for wanting it built into a kernel from my source repo is then I don’t have to worry about some bullshit upgrade not actually updating the kernel module like it should have. Dealt with that a few too many times when using ZFS on debian.
There is nothing more annoying than dkms failing to build your primary storage (or NIC) module after a kernel update because ✨reasons✨ - that’s a huge part of why I settled on Proxmox for my server boxes, no more unexpected ZFS breakage.
Check out the Proxmox kernel when you get a chance, you might be able to just pull packages from their repo and roll with Sid otherwise.
Dude if that’s the case I’m so stoked. I don’t hate Ubuntu but I think forced snaps are dumb and wrongbad. It’ll be a bit before I can commit to the project sadly. I’ve got a work trip, a proposal and some pinball repairs on the docket first.
Should probably get a new battery for that laptop too.
You’re looking for Gentoo.
Unless I’m missing something, Gentoo uses out of tree kernel modules. https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/ZFS#Installation
Ubuntu actually bakes it into the kernel for you. I prefer having it in the kernel after having to deal with failed kernel upgrades several times in a row.
Considering that installing ZFS is optional even in Ubuntu, that just cannot be true. Out of tree means that upstream kernel.org does not bundle ZFS.
Btw, Ubuntu 21.10 corrupted ZFS partitions. Their QA is shit.
Keep in mind, Ubuntu rolls it’s own kernel based on kernel.org release.
Pretty sure optional means optional to use as your FS but not optional on your kernel.
Good to know! I’ll double check my version, then again, I skipped the installer and did things the advanced mode for my install so I might get to skip that issue.
Out of tree still means not part of kernel.org upstream. You’re imagining a tighter ZFS integration than is actually there in Ubuntu simply because of misunderstanding used terminology.
Well, you won’t have that much longer.
Oh? What’s going on?
The ZFS installer was removed from later non-LTS releases. AFAIK, even in the version with the ZFS installer, it wasn’t in the kernel, it was just including the pre-compiled non-DKMS driver module that matched the kernel version.
That’s inaccurate. I’m was running that kernel when it came out, just the kernel no extra modules or anything get added except the libraries and commanda for ZFS and zpool. I’m on a more recent one these days and it’s still the same set up.
I can’t say I care about it being an option in the installer, I’d rather run an advanced install because the installer’s ZFS set up was garbage, everything in one zpool, no branching no data encryption etc etc.
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The current most popular distribution is MX Linux (based on Debian Stable), which I use. You certainly don’t have to, but I would say least start with a distro that respects you and adheres to FOSS standards…
Edit: context
Honestly, instead of trying to remove Snap from Ubuntu, I’d just install another distro (PopOS for example is mostly like Ubuntu but with Flatpak instead of Snap)
Oh, is there a point using PopOS even if I replace the WM?
Pop is great, even without the wm. The app store is top notch, if you’re into that sort of thing. Basically it’s Ubuntu minus snaps, so slightly more modern Debian, with good flatpak integration making up for all apt’s drawbacks. Perfect for the computer you want to be able to use without dealing with out of date packages or rolling release tinkering.
Even so, the wm is worth taking the time to get familiar with, because it’s intuitive enough for a non power user, and you’re not going to approach its efficiency in terms of workflow unless you can consistently use several dozen keyboard shortcuts on a more bare bones tiling wm. Anyway, that’s my opinion, having used a wide variety of window managers since the 90s.
What’s “wm”?
Window manager
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Been using pop for months now. The one thing I have a complaint about my part has to do with Steam. I was drawn to Pop because it had good Nvidia support out the box. Steam flatpak is fine but it can’t do some things that the normal deb version can, such as accessing other drives you may have steam games installed on, or that you want to install them on. You have to make some sacrifices with your library setup and your freedom with it when using flatpak.
It took me a while.to figure this out. I like to share it when I can. The deb version of steam is much nicer to use.
Flatpak steam can do all that. You just have to learn to control the flatpak sandbox. There are CLI commands of course or you can install Flatseal which is a real nice gui that lets you control the sandbox for each individual flatpak app. https://flathub.org/apps/com.github.tchx84.Flatseal
Just add whatever drive/directory/mount point in the filesystem path for Steam in flatseal and Steam can see it.
I couldn’t get it going on anything but my steam deck to read SD cards. Flatseal doesn’t seem to help. The only thing that worked after a ton of attempts following a ton of guides on my desktop was to get the deb version.
Yea, I see. I use xmonad tailored to my needs tho, so that is why I want to use mu owb WM.
You’re absolutely not the target audience for the wm. But… you still might want to be familiar with it, because it could totally be your foot in the door to set someone down that path. The cost of adopting pop’s workflow is substantially smaller than creating your own from scratch, but it’s intuitive enough to get someone to at least understand why it might evolve to something like your setup.
These days I just don’t have enough time, and i’ve seen enough trends come and go that i’m happy with most of the pop defaults, and it’s mostly just dressing for terminal windows anyway. There are totally better options out there, I just don’t have the time to invest in one.
And anyway, most Debian and Ubuntu documentation is spot on for pop, which is a big advantage for anyone who is familiar with them or doesn’t have the time or desire to solve their own problems.
Yeah! Has good power management utilities and bonus features. but personally I’d stick to GNOME/Cosmic if you had Pop installed. You miss out on that integration otherwise.
Yeah, switching to Pop! Next time I do any major fucking around.
How about Devuan?
but with Flatpak instead of Snap
Same shit. Install Gentoo.
Installs Ubuntu.
It is Ubuntu.
Gets angry.Gort is not angry. Gort is calm.
Help me understand. Why would you install a distribution, just to gut what’s making it what it is, instead of just getting anything else? Just from Debian derivative perspective, if you hate snaps, why not install something like LMDE Mint, if you need a complete out of the box distro?
I think mainly because a ton of open source software will be tested with Ubuntu, and I don’t want another thing that could possibly be the problem when it fails to build on my machine.
Problem is that by “unsnapping”, you deviate from “Ubuntu”. You start having to add all sorts of third party packages, and the more that is needed, the more the value of aligning with a well tested baseline diminishes. Notably, Ubuntu declares an intent to make everything snaps, including the kernel and bootloader.
So it would seem more productive for someone railing against snap to avoid using Ubuntu and avoid bolstering the reputation of something they fundamentally disagree with.
This is why I often choose an Ubuntu derivative like Pop_OS. Most of the same underlying structure with none of the snaps.
Just use Debian or Linux Mint Debian Edition and call it a day.
Or just use one of the many Ubuntu derivatives that don’t force Snap?
I would rather run literally everything in docker than use snaps
“Hang on boss, I have to restart the ‘ls’ container! Just a jiff!”
I recently tried Ubuntu after many years, needed Docker and it told me to install it as a Snap, I thought, OK, whatever. I’m anything but a newbie, but for the life of me I couldn’t figure out where the volumes were actually kept. That was the primary reason to abandon this experiment.
Sounds crazy. Lol docker is definitely an insane way to run desktop apps, but it’s the insane way that I’m comfortable with 😹
To containerize desktop apps I prefer Apptainer/Singularity, that’s pretty portable, usersapce, and requires less tinkering to integrate with the system than Docker. I use it for Zoom and other closed source crap. AppImage is probably the more standard solution for that that’s very similar technologically, but I’m already familiar with Apptainer from work.
I’ve never used those! Gonna have to check them out
Idea: snap installer called crackle that just unpacks everything (relatively) normally. Should be primarily for pop os. Snap, crackle, and pop.
How many time does Canonical have to do sketchy shit before people catch on? Seriously.
I’m just sitting here having no problem with the few snaps I use
Snaps aren’t bad, Canonical might be but then why use Ubuntu?
$ df -h one billion lines of snaps
This annoys me more than it should!
When I still used Ubuntu, I had an alias on all my systems/servers
alias dfh=‘df -h | grep -v snap’
This shouldn’t be necessary.
Am I wrong for ignoring snaps and just using apt-get still?
Some packages are snaps underneath though. Like firefox.
Not if you install Firefox from Flatpak. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
Just use Linux mint
that only works until you need Lua 5.4 which has conflicting dependencies aaand now im on NixOS
Couldn’t you just install it in a container? Distrobox makes it easy to get something like Fedora which has newer packages.
if i wanted containerized environments, i would pick alpine, but it all makes most trivial things so much more complicated — i just want global install dang nabbit, just keep all your sandboxing on process level controlled by the kernel, give me my userspace freedom
To each there own I guess.
Could someone ELI5 whats wrong with snaps? I see hate for them all over the place but as an end user with little technical knowledge of linux packaging they seem fine? I can install them and use them, they don’t appear to have any anti-FOSS gotchas, so whats the big deal?
I think it’s another fine example of Canonical pushing its own products rather than supporting and enhancing existing standards (flatpak and appimage), which people are getting tired of. Also, as I understand it, the snap store itself is proprietary and is therefore controlled by Canonical.
The server isn’t open source, so Canonical has the sole ability to control snap distribution. It’s also yet another example of Canonical’s “Not Invented Here” syndrome, where they constantly reinvent things so they can control it instead of working with the rest of the open source community. They also trick you into using snaps; for example if you explicitly tell it to use apt to install Firefox, it’ll install it as a snap anyways.
Historically they performed really poorly as well, but my understanding is that they’ve largely fixed that issue.
there was a time when they were slow, but that’s mostly been resolved.
but it’s really just a cult thing now. people hate snaps because they think they’re supposed to hate snaps.
I hate snaps mainly because the server is proprietary. Everything else wrong is negotiable or solvanle, but that’s a nonstarter.
If Canonical gives up on snaps, do we call the current Ubuntu time period “the Blip”?
Too late, I’m on Manjaro for the TV computer now. Super annoying when all I use it for is a browser for Jellyfin when the update popup shows up all the time and doesn’t even update when you follow its instructions.
I know and did the workaround a couple times, but updates through apt is one of the major strengths of Linux for me. Or pacman now, whatever Manjaro has.
I mean a TV console just screams LTS Debian to me. Just the most solid of solid distributions
I should give it a shot. I went with the best sounding option when googling for distros that handle scaling the best. That way I can keep resolution high for movies, but have text at 200% without certain system menus being tiny the way they were on Ubuntu with Gnome.
