Also where’s regex? Though that’s so troublesome because it’s a process encoded in a string, not really a structure with debatably obnoxious syntax… hmm
I honestly think that JSON and YAML should be swapped due to YAML’s strict indentation rules whereas you can just pack an entire JSON object on one line.
I think yaml’s need for indentation alone makes it chaotic evil. I’ve seen so many people struggle with the indentation than they really need to it’s not fun. Especially problematic with large configuration files.
JSON is easy to unpack with tools like jq or whatever.
There are 6 different combinations of “interpret multiline whitespace” character patterns. There are three types of single-line strings, and if you use “Yes” or “No” the data gets type cast.
Just because there are a lot of rules doesn’t make something chaotic in this system. The lawful-chaotic axis is a spectrum of how much of a stickler for the rules you are. YAML’s “one whitespace out of place and your whole config is fucked” attitude puts it squarely into lawful territory. JSON by contrast gives no shits about your file structure as long as your curly braces match.
Oh this is a good point - the syntax error on line one has ruined several productive days.
Of course the tool would happily prettify it for me, but it has to be valid json. Which I think would make it more enjoyable if it said in that message “Good luck, we’re counting on you.”
The problem is that the current fashion of devops is done through piles and piles of badly defined YAML. If it used any other configuration language, it would be just as bad.
How’s it annoying? It’s easier to edit by hand than json as it allows for comments and there’s no trailing comma errors.
I prefer it any day over json.
There’s a lot of foot guns in YAML. The specification is way more complicated with hidden obscurities. JSON specification is just 5 diagrams. YAML speciation on the other hand is an 86 page pdf, so there’s more room for nasty surprises (which is not a thing you want in configuration files).
I’ve also seen many people struggle more than they need to with the yaml indentation.
I think the only upside to yaml is that it allows for comments, but other than that JSON all the way.
There are plugins that go back and forth between JSON and YAML so as you might expect it’s similar. Unlike JSON, spacing has semantic meaning, which can be a little annoying, especially when cutting and pasting. It’s nice in that configs aren’t cluttered up with open and close braces. It could be annoying AF if you’re a tabs instead of spaces person but idk because I’m a spaces person.
I like YAML for config over .config files but it’s not a big deal either way. It just encourages better organization of settings because the hierarchical structure demands it while .config let’s you just drop a setting anywhere in the file. But it’s valid to have the opposite preference for the exact same reasons.
not at all. it’s used for configuration and stuff. having a lot of it can be a real bummer depending on the context. like a puppet config or perhaps a super weird docker compose setup.
I’ve never heard anyone complain about the markup though. it’s like blaming json for a crap api or something or idk blaming the coffee cup for burnt coffee 🤷
It’s just another structured data format. It’s used for a lot more than config. It’s also how you define commands and etc for Ansible. Like how a Maven project is defined in XML or a NodeJS package has its JSON.
Sure they’re still “just” data formats on their own, but what they’re used for is genuinely just as important as what it is. I really doubt XML would’ve held on like it has without HTML being the web.
For some little config it’s fine, but it’s horrible when used when you have thousands upon thousands of lines of it. Lots of DevOps tools tend to use it like a fully-blown turing-complete programming language, and each has a different DSL of doing variables, loops etc. And that becomes an abomination.
Is Yaml bad ?
Not always, but the second you use anchor/references you have sold your soul in a Faustian bargain of convenience.
On the alignment chart of data/markup formats:
Nah this chart needs fixing. Raw html is not neutral. And how is html neutral but xml evil. And who is writing restructured text outside of python?
Also where’s regex? Though that’s so troublesome because it’s a process encoded in a string, not really a structure with debatably obnoxious syntax… hmm
Because regex isn’t a language used way to store or view data. It’s just a quick way to find, and potentially replace text.
I honestly think that JSON and YAML should be swapped due to YAML’s strict indentation rules whereas you can just pack an entire JSON object on one line.
I think yaml’s need for indentation alone makes it chaotic evil. I’ve seen so many people struggle with the indentation than they really need to it’s not fun. Especially problematic with large configuration files.
JSON is easy to unpack with tools like jq or whatever.
There are 6 different combinations of “interpret multiline whitespace” character patterns. There are three types of single-line strings, and if you use “Yes” or “No” the data gets type cast.
Yaml is chaotic.
Just because there are a lot of rules doesn’t make something chaotic in this system. The lawful-chaotic axis is a spectrum of how much of a stickler for the rules you are. YAML’s “one whitespace out of place and your whole config is fucked” attitude puts it squarely into lawful territory. JSON by contrast gives no shits about your file structure as long as your curly braces match.
Oh this is a good point - the syntax error on line one has ruined several productive days.
Of course the tool would happily prettify it for me, but it has to be valid json. Which I think would make it more enjoyable if it said in that message “Good luck, we’re counting on you.”
TOML is my bestie
I went straight from chaotic evil to lawful good.
good to know I’m on both the lawful good and the chaotic evil side
Yes, a bit. But that’s not the problem.
The problem is that the current fashion of devops is done through piles and piles of badly defined YAML. If it used any other configuration language, it would be just as bad.
It isn’t “bad”, as it does have a purpose. It’s just fucking annoying to work with.
https://docs.platform.sh/learn/overview/yaml/what-is-yaml.html
How’s it annoying? It’s easier to edit by hand than json as it allows for comments and there’s no trailing comma errors. I prefer it any day over json.
There’s a lot of foot guns in YAML. The specification is way more complicated with hidden obscurities. JSON specification is just 5 diagrams. YAML speciation on the other hand is an 86 page pdf, so there’s more room for nasty surprises (which is not a thing you want in configuration files).
I’ve also seen many people struggle more than they need to with the yaml indentation.
I think the only upside to yaml is that it allows for comments, but other than that JSON all the way.
https://ruudvanasseldonk.com/2023/01/11/the-yaml-document-from-hell
The fact that it allows comments is really, really handy. I used to be a JSON advocate until I realized this one useful piece of info.
Yeah, such a simple, but still killer feature. Really sad that JSON doesn’t support them.
I wonder how you’d even implement that. Like maybe {! At the beginning.
Most comment-aware JSON parsers I’ve seen just use standard // to delineate comment lines.
They make sense.
There are plugins that go back and forth between JSON and YAML so as you might expect it’s similar. Unlike JSON, spacing has semantic meaning, which can be a little annoying, especially when cutting and pasting. It’s nice in that configs aren’t cluttered up with open and close braces. It could be annoying AF if you’re a tabs instead of spaces person but idk because I’m a spaces person.
I like YAML for config over .config files but it’s not a big deal either way. It just encourages better organization of settings because the hierarchical structure demands it while .config let’s you just drop a setting anywhere in the file. But it’s valid to have the opposite preference for the exact same reasons.
I’ll answer your question with a question. Why does YAML support sexagesimal? (that’s base 60)
ports: - 22:22Becomes
{ "ports": [1342] }I learned the hard way that no is false in yaml. Took us a while to realize why our app failed to start in Norway. Too many ways to do something.
Even a ‘no’ is a ‘false’ ?
Yup. Have to ensure that you use “no” if you don’t want yaml to equate it to false.
not at all. it’s used for configuration and stuff. having a lot of it can be a real bummer depending on the context. like a puppet config or perhaps a super weird docker compose setup. I’ve never heard anyone complain about the markup though. it’s like blaming json for a crap api or something or idk blaming the coffee cup for burnt coffee 🤷
It’s just another structured data format. It’s used for a lot more than config. It’s also how you define commands and etc for Ansible. Like how a Maven project is defined in XML or a NodeJS package has its JSON.
Sure they’re still “just” data formats on their own, but what they’re used for is genuinely just as important as what it is. I really doubt XML would’ve held on like it has without HTML being the web.
For some little config it’s fine, but it’s horrible when used when you have thousands upon thousands of lines of it. Lots of DevOps tools tend to use it like a fully-blown turing-complete programming language, and each has a different DSL of doing variables, loops etc. And that becomes an abomination.